Disappointment
By Bricu | December 19, 2009
Thanks to the Wildfire Riders, I got to see the Ice Crown Citadel 5-mans. I personally avoided all the spoilers from patch notes and blogs because I wanted to see, first hand, how Jania interacts with Arthas.
I was more than underwhelmed. I was sorely disappointed.
Jania Proudmoore is the ruler of Theramoore, a powerful
magi, a peer to Thrall, Varian and every other faction leader. Why the hell is she fawning over her memories of Arthas? Running off to fight him by herself? Really? Come on!
I’m sorry, I think blizz went overboard with Jania and her “past feelings” for Arthas.
One other weird note: if Uther’s soul is in Frostmourne (which was neat!) than who the hell visits the PCs at Uther’s Shrine in the Plaguelands?
36 Comments
Anna on December 20, 2009 at 12:06 am.
The humorless feminist in me wants to take the Jaina thing on. But I’m not sure I have the chutzpah to even try, let alone the eloquence to do it well. It reeks of “Oh I know he’s such a jerk, but I’ll save him” (Beauty and the Beast much?) and turning a manipulative, immature, abusive jerk into some dreamy hero because she loves him.
It /bugs/ me. It bugged me in Arthas, and it bugs me even more now. Its stupid to the point of being utterly unbelievable and it weakens their story considerably. That she is so blind to herself, what she needs and wants, and what her /people/ need and want that she’d go off like that? What The Fuck.
Arthas must’ve been one damn good lay.
I dunno – maybe it’s Blizzard’s attempt to make Varian look good in comparison “Sure he’s a raging PTSD douchewaffle, but at least he’s not in love with his memories of Arthas before he turned into a giant monster!” But seriously? Did we have to go into all THAT bullshit just to rescue Varian and turn him into King Macho Goodguy?
NNNNNNNNRGH.
Daniel Whitcomb on December 20, 2009 at 12:17 am.
I admit to being a Male here, but I have to admit I saw it from a different angle. After reading the Arthas book, I saw a real and intense love between Jaina and Arthas, one that was suddenly ripped away from her by the manipulations of dread lords and a cursed sword. Knowing your love was corrupted by “outside” forces (Not that I don’t attribute Arthas’ downfall in part this his singlemindedness and a latent darkness that Frostmourne was able to feed on as well), it doesn’t seem too bad to me that you might try one last time to appeal to his humanity, in hopes you’ll get him back. I don’t think Jaina did that because she was female, I think she did it because she was in love.
It’s also worth it to note that Tirion was essentially in the exact same place as Jaina at the beginning of Wrath. He, too, wanted to confirm that there was anything of the true Arthas in the Lich King, as is revealed during the Arthas’ heart subquest. He too, confronts Arthas over it, and he too nearly dies, being saved only by the Ebon Blade.
I honestly have to defend Jaina in this instance. Really, the entire offensive has been underestimating Arthas from day one (Building a renfaire on his front doorstep only to have to destroy by Anub’arak, Anyone?), so I can’t say Jaina’s alone in this.
Then again, I’ve also felt Varian was sympathetic from day one too, so YMMV.
Israia on December 20, 2009 at 12:26 am.
I think that if anything, it’s less that the story itself is bad, and more that the way it’s being told could be better. For example, the reason Jaina was just with us three was because the bulk of the(already diminished from the Wrathgate) forces were knocking on Arthas’ door. Furthermore, Frostmourne being in this “Halls of Reflection” was nothing but a rumor until they actually arrived.
Also, I think your view on her status is way off- a peer to Thrall or Varian? Hardly. She leads an outpost on a continent that the humans hold absolutely no interest in. As far as I can tell, Theramore and Dustwallow in general serve as little more than a place where the Black Dragonflight can get an easier ride back home, now that the threat of the Legion is gone(as when they were there, it was potentially the future of humanity itself).
The 5-mans are a sidestory to the main event of actually breaking down the Citadel. And Jaina, as much as she’s shown heroism and intelligence in the past, is not infallible, nor as powerful as we’d like to see.
Note; This isn’t to say that Blizzard didn’t make mistakes here- they made dozens, and overall told this sidestory absolutely horribly. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be salvaged by reading between the lines a little harder.
Anna on December 20, 2009 at 12:26 am.
If I remember correctly, Arthas himself broke up with Jaina. Whose response was “Oh ok, well, we’ll just go as friends to the pretty winter ball”. And then when Jaina didn’t roll over and do exactly as he wanted – it was /her/ betrayal, even though /he’d/ dumped her.
Maybe you’re right, and they WANTED to portray a real and intense love – but they did a pretty piss poor job of it. And Arthas was a manipulative, immature jerk for the whole of the relationship (For the whole of the ARthas novel really, which was, I think, part of the point.)
That doesn’t take away from her caring about him (she’s not the first nor the last person ever to care about a manipulative, immature jerk) – but it does weaken her character.
And it STILL doesn’t explain why she thinks she can look into his eyes and save him at the expense of a battalion of her soldiers, or why she still gets all moony eyed about him. Sure she loved him. Even if he was an amazing and wonderful person before he turned into the biggest monster this side of Queen Azshara, he’s done a lot of horrible, /HORRIBLE/ things. To her, in front of her, around her – to her soldiers in that same instance set. That she’s incapable of seeing that is detrimental to her ability to have rational thought, and kinda ruins the whole “strong awesome leader” thing she had going in WCIII.
Bricu on December 20, 2009 at 12:53 am.
Izzy: from wow wiki–
Jaina Proudmoore is the founder and leader of Theramore Isle, the Alliance’s major port in southern Kalimdor. She is the daughter of Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, sister of Tandred Proudmoore and Derek Proudmoore, and the alleged half-sister of Finnall Goldensword. She is also the most powerful human sorceress on Azeroth.
Corise on December 20, 2009 at 1:38 am.
Re: Jaina’s importance, there’s also this tidbit from her WoWWiki page: “Before Varian’s return, Jaina was arguably the de facto or informal ruler of the Alliance.” She was also instrumental in establishing the fragile (and now apparently largely broken) peace treaty between the Alliance and the Horde. Given how greatly her views differ from those of Varian Wrynn, it’s only natural that her political prominence has been greatly reduced in recent months. Similarly, Theramore may not seem very important at the moment with all the action being in Northrend, but to say that humans hold no interest whatsoever in southern Kalimdor seems a bit much. She may not be quite on a level with Wrynn or Thrall, but she’s up there.
Re: Jaina herself – I share the disappointment expressed by many with the way she comes across in the Icecrown five-mans. To be fair, some of it stems from my dislike of Jaina’s new voice actress, whose delivery strikes me as ridiculously melodramatic. (My husband and I have takent to relentlessly mocking her during the opening sequence in HoR: “Oooo-ther! Dear Ooooo-ther!”)
But seriously – this is the woman who led the survivors of Lordaeron across the sea to Kalimdor during the Third War and fought the Burning Legion at Mount Hyjal. This is the woman who sided against her own FATHER in order to preserve peace between the Alliance and the Horde. And somehow she still falls to pieces over a jerk ex-boyfriend who dumped her years ago, all before he turned into one of the greatest evils Azeroth has ever seen?
I suppose another part of my issue stems from my feelings about the Arthas/Jaina romance, which reminds me very strongly of the Anakin/Padme romance from the Star Wars prequels. In both cases, it seems that we’re supposed to believe that this is a great passionate love for the ages, but I find both relationships unconvincing and shallow. As a result, I find myself unable to sympathize with the female characters’ feelings; instead, I’m impatient with the apparent willingness of two otherwise strong and independent women to let themselves be treated like crap. I know love makes you do the wacky, to quote Buffy, but geez.
It’s really a shame, too, because I’ve always loved Jaina. Sigh.
Bricu on December 20, 2009 at 1:48 am.
Passionate love for the ages:
Bricu and Threnn
Shael and Nora
…That’s all I can think of.
Bricu on December 20, 2009 at 1:48 am.
4 srs post comments tomorrow
falconesse on December 20, 2009 at 2:25 am.
I have to agree with Anna here. The “love” between Arthas and Jaina in Arthas was terribly written. Jaina was a Mary Sue, and functioned as little more than a plot device. Arthas treated her horribly in the novel; her reaction was basically “Oh, that’s all right. He needs me to be supportive of him.” Didn’t matter if it was Arthas or Kael’thas being rude to her, she just…accepted it. No emotion, not even any real kind of hurt.
She wasn’t a well-rounded character in that novel by any means.
Now, with the Icecrown instances, they’ve continued in that vein. Tirion’s quest to find out if Arthas was still redeemable didn’t come at nearly the cost of Jaina’s snivelling chase through the Citadel. Corise makes a very good point — some of it is the voice actress. She doesn’t sound strong, she doesn’t sound confident about her course. She sounds whiny and weak. “I’m soooo sorry, noble soldiers.”
But the character’s actions aren’t the voice actress’ fault:
“‘Scuse me while I go haring off after my ex-boyfriend so I can look in his eyes one last time! It totally makes sense!”
In a bad novel, sure.
Jaina’s chasing after Arthas at the end of Halls of Reflection doesn’t make for good story. Her speechifying at the end about how sorry she is doesn’t make up for the rashness of her actions up to that point.
Jaina is as reckless going after Arthas as Varian Wrynn is when he goes after Thrall in Undercity. Neither scenario endears them to me, since, y’know, they’re risking our characters’ lives for something foolish, not because they’ve thought this out and have an idea how to defeat their enemies.
Like Bricu, more thoughts on this in the morning.
Israia on December 20, 2009 at 3:34 am.
Bricu: Okay, so? That doesn’t mean she has any actual political power. Maybe I should have been clearer in that- this is someone who, now with Varian in power, has effectively little to no power in actually influencing what happens. We’ve seen as much many times thus far just since 3.0.
Corise on December 20, 2009 at 4:04 am.
Oh, I definitely don’t put all the blame on the voice actress. I don’t think anyone could deliver the lines they’re putting in her mouth without sounding at least a bit over-the-top. And, as mentioned, regardless of the dialogue, the character’s actions are just plain stupid. But having a voice actress who, as falconesse says, sounds whiny and weak certainly doesn’t help in the slightest.
In regard to Tirion’s Gambit – if anything, that makes me more annoyed with Jaina, because it means that she is completely disregarding Fordring’s judgement and risking her life and ours to find out something that we already risked our lives to find out before! What’s more, when the spirit of Oooo-ther- excuse me, Uther tries to tell her that no, there really isn’t any chance of redeeming Arthas, she clutches at every straw she can possibly find to ignore the implications of that! Again, this is a woman who helped the Horde fight her own dad (who, while misguided and stubborn, was not evil) because he posed a threat to peace with the Horde… but when it comes to her ex-boyfriend, who poses a far graver threat and has committed far more reprehensible acts, she just can’t put aside her emotions and behave rationally?
Incidentally, Jaina’s last words to her dying father were to ask him why he didn’t listen. Last night, when my group wiped during the escape from the Lich King in HoR, I wanted to ask Jaina the same damn question.
Tarquin on December 20, 2009 at 5:12 am.
Just remember, Jaina was hardass enough to /help kill her own dad/. This bears repeating.
Hopefully she gets back on track in Cata.
Sorcha on December 20, 2009 at 7:54 am.
Jaina does stupid stuff in these 5-man instances. Still, I’m going to defend the choices that the writers have made. They are NOT the choices I wish they’d made. They are NOT the choices I think make for the best story. But I think they are consistent with how they’ve portrayed Jaina in relation to Arthas, even since they cooked up this whole WotLK. Just look at how she is drawn in the Arthas book.
People fall in love with immature twits all the time. You very rarely see someone saying, “Oh, my lover is an immature twit, but I love her anyway.” They say things like “She’s misunderstood.” I find it almost incomprehensible that Jaina would be like that, but you know what? She consistently accepts crappy treatment from both Kael’Thas and Arthas. It’s her great weakness, and it always has been.
Like most people in this situation, she doesn’t see her great weakness. Among the people who think that Arthas/Jaina is a love story for the ages (and not just a cliched, poorly conceived, and horribly presented story of two immature people playing at love) is Jaina herself. It hasn’t prevented her from doing great deeds, but it has colored her view of everything — it has to have done. If you think you are part of a pair of epicly great but star-crossed lovers, you are going to deal with being betrayed by your lover very differently than if you think that it’s just a case of girl-meets-jerk-falls-in-love-and-it-doesn’t-work-out. Jaina’s had a good long while to solidify her notions of what’s happened, even if they bear little relation to the truth.
In order to accept what Arthas has become, she has to accept that all along, he was the kind of person who makes the kind of choices that lead to the Frozen Throne. That means being extremely clear-eyed about her own shortcomings, both in choosing to fall in love with him and in lying to herself about who he was. She also has to let go of that notion of “romance for the ages”, because people like Arthas was, even before his fall, are not people who get to be included in a “romance for the ages”. This is the underlying mistake someone(s) at Blizzard has made, but having made it, the end result is that Jaina sort of gets dragged along into the muck.
Meanwhile, let’s look at all the people who hope that Arthas has something alive inside the Lich King, something that can be reached. Tirion needed a confrontation with Arthas to accept that it’s not true. Uther claims to accept that Arthas-as-Arthas is gone, but even now, he posits that perhaps the tiny remnant of Arthas inside the Lich King is the only thing that keeps the Scourge in check. Depending on who you think that little kid in the Tirion’s Gambit chain “really is”, you could argue that even Arthas hopes he’s not entirely consumed by the Lich King.
Is Jaina acting ridiculously self-absorbed in HoR? Yes. Is it consistent with how she’s been portrayed in this relationship up until now? Unfortunately, I think it is. Her love life has always been the worst part of her story, poorly conceived, poorly executed, and relegating her (in this aspect of her life) to little more than a cardboard plot device. I don’t like it, I wish she’d done better, and I am annoyed by the voice acting even while I think it fits the character Blizzard has presented to us.
But I’m not going to blame her for not trusting Tirion’s judgment, or Uther’s, when both of them required eyewitness evidence before they accepted it (if, in fact, Uther has actually accepted it even now).
Cynwise on December 20, 2009 at 8:04 am.
The comparison between Jania and Padme is an apt one, especially with respect to the actresses’ portrayals of their respective characters. Some dialog is unredeemably awful, and here are two great examples of that.
I have not read the Arthas novel, so I didn’t have any backstory to prepare me for the speeches in HoR. I was left wondering if this was some kind of joke. I felt physically uncomfortable listening to it. It was like a scene from a soap opera.
I seriously wanted to shake her and tell her to get over him, you silly git, and let’s get to work!
Jaina’s motivations seem to change to suit whatever scene she’s in, reminding me of the maddening Captain Janeway of ST:Voyager. I’m starting to dismiss her as a Princess cipher for the Blizzard storytelling team. As has been pointed out before, this is someone who faced down and killed her own father in the name of peace with the Horde. That’s serious, meaty stuff. I’m supposed to buy that someone with that kind of emotional fortitude, with the ability to sacrifice her own family for the good of Azeroth, is incapable of making the same sacrifice of a man who she once loved?
I don’t think so, Blizzard.
WTB retcon, PST.
Cynwise on December 20, 2009 at 8:13 am.
@sorcha: That is an excellent point about how Jaina’s own sense of the magnitude of the relationship is warping her thinking about it. It’s a bad mix of Romeo and Juliet and a hero complex, all rolled into one cringeworthy package.
Teuthida on December 20, 2009 at 8:34 am.
Jaina’s new and not-even-a-little-bit improved attitude towards Arthas bothers the crap out of me. There are tons of people who have a history with Arthas. There’s every possible motivation under the sun to take him down. And yet — surprise surprise! — the one “pretty girl” character has a totally different motivation than everyone else. For Jaina, it’s not about the people he’s murdered, the father he betrayed, the lands he corrupted, the danger he represents — the thing that she keeps coming back to is her feeeeeelings for him. While the heartfelt love of a teenager for her first boyfriend/lover is pretty intense, most girls get over the pining, particularly (I would imagine) if their ex turns out to be THE FREAKING LICH KING.
The changes in Jaina post-LK/novel stand out partly because they’re such bizarre changes from her previous behavior (where’s the clue in WarIII that Jaina and Arthas were involved? for that matter, in pre-LK WoW?) and partly because, when you only have two or three major female characters in all of WoW, you notice when one of them stop having any kind of plotlines or development on their own and start being completely reactive to male characters. These days, Jaina shows up not to help you find the missing diplomat or send you on quests, but to try to keep Varian Wrynn from going bugshit on the Horde, to sob over Arthas, to interact with Uther.
Sister ain’t doing it for herself anymore — and she used to. That’s the worst part about all this. She had her own plot, her own character development, her own motivations. Now she’s just there in a failing attempt to provide humanity to Arthas and Varian Wrynn, and in a game with precious few female characters, I’m disappointed that Blizzard’s basically wasted a really good one in order to provide more oomph to its male characters.
Tif on December 20, 2009 at 10:25 am.
I can’t remember who it was I was on vent with at the time, but we really boiled it down to something like this:
“A hundred good Alliance soldiers are dead because you had to be a stupid lovesick cunt! Try explaining that one to high command!”
Bricu on December 20, 2009 at 12:53 pm.
“Bricu: Okay, so? That doesn’t mean she has any actual political power. Maybe I should have been clearer in that- this is someone who, now with Varian in power, has effectively little to no power in actually influencing what happens. We’ve seen as much many times thus far just since 3.0.”
No political power? She’s been Varian’s primary advisory in every single cut scene and expansion pack in Wrath. She brought Varian to see the Tor for the Ulduar expansion. She got every one to CHILL THE FUCK OUT in Wrathgate.
In WC3 she was a strong, powerful leader. Now? Lovesick. It’s pathetic.
Yva on December 20, 2009 at 1:07 pm.
I was kinda all right with shit UNTIL the last line. That’s what destroyed it for me. “I’m sorry heroes, I just had to look into his eyes one last time.” Even after she witnesses /hundreds/ of alliance soldiers getting one shot whacked by Arthas, that’s all she can think to say? YOUR BAD IDEA GOT A FUCKLOAD OF PEOPLE KILLED. It’s great you apologized to the 5 people in party, Jaina, but what did you sacrifice to get your last look?
Kinda makes her sound like a heartless, self centered bitch, doesn’t it?
Now, to be fair, on one level I get the story arc. Love makes people do INCREDIBLY stupid shit. It blinds you, will sometimes make you overlook the sensible things. I can kinda jive with that being the reason she goes in (nevermind finding Frostmourne). What I can’t jive with is that being the only thing she took away after her faulty mission kills everyone. “OOPS, I REALLY FUCKED UP, HUH. SRY GUYZ.”
If that’s her gut reaction in the wake of what went down? Yeaaaaaah. I don’t want that lady leading anymore, k thnx.
((Oh, and to be a total assface: When Arthas power walks at the end, all I could think of was This.))
Lilivati on December 20, 2009 at 1:09 pm.
Not to be a prick or anything, but women in fantasy game franchises are ALWAYS little more than plot devices. It’s one of the things that drives me insane. They are there to provide stories for the more important male characters, and are exactly as fleshed out as they need to be for that purpose. Who cares if their actions make sense as long as it makes the true hero or villain look cool?
Tarquin on December 21, 2009 at 12:40 am.
^I would recommend George RR Martin (A Song of Ice and Fire), Joe Abercrombie (the First Law trilogy) and Robin Hobb (The Farseer Trilogy) to you.
Itanya Blade on December 21, 2009 at 12:35 pm.
1) Just because it has always been that way, doesn’t mean it is acceptable to continue it being that way
2) Curse of the Azure Blade was a video game with a strong female protagonist that was not window dressing.
3) Sadly, it sounds like the Horde version of the ICC dungeons is much cooler. Of course, Sylvanas is more like a Carpenter strong female archetype than Jaina is these days.
Linedan on December 21, 2009 at 2:13 pm.
I agree with Pill. The Horde version of HoR is awesome because you know that Sylvanas is in there for one reason and one reason only–she wants Arthas DEAD. And in the back of your head, you know that if she’s got to sacrifice you to do it…you’re expendable and she’ll do it without a second thought. No navel-gazing here, even though Sylvie’s got quite the navel, IIKWIMAITYD. Everybody knows where everybody else stands.
I haven’t done HoR A-side yet, but from what I’m hearing, it’s just…ugh. Jaina is not some sniveling little girl. No, she’s not super badass–her voice quotes (stuff like “I’d rather be studying”) tell you that she’s a strong and adaptable woman thrust into a role that she didn’t want, but has done very well in. It seems out of character for her to throw a company of soldiers/slaves away on some silly quest for her former twu wuv.
Shizukera Nightfury on December 21, 2009 at 2:29 pm.
Quoting Yva:
“Now, to be fair, on one level I get the story arc. Love makes people do INCREDIBLY stupid shit. It blinds you, will sometimes make you overlook the sensible things.”
That’s it in a nutshell. She never stopped loving Arthas, and that caused her to do something stupid (she saw what she perceived as one final chance to save Arthas, and she took it – I’m quite sure she regretted that decision later). Hell, people go nutters and -kill other people- in the name of love. But in Jaina’s defense, her attitude does a complete one-eighty once she’s spoken to Uther and seen what Arthas truly has become.
The story itself isn’t stupid. They just fell horribly, unforgivably short in the telling of that story. Jaina’s the most powerful sorceress in the world. She was never portrayed as a super-badass; I don’t believe that was how Blizzard ever intended to portray her. She’s a thinker, a student, someone whose strength lies in keeping the peace, not in fighting at the frontlines. But in her quiet way, she’s done quite a lot in Wrath to keep things from completely unraveling – usually through mass-teleporting people out of rapidly crumbling situations before they can tear each other’s heads off. While the humanity of the Alliance side of the story appeals to me far more than the “I want revenge” attitude of Sylvanas, I will say that Jaina should be a *lot* stronger in HoR than she is.
tl;dr – It’s a good story idea that just fell short. WTB better storytelling.
falconesse on December 21, 2009 at 2:50 pm.
Sorcha said:
Here’s the thing, though: show me where in this expansion or in Arthas she actually thinks those things for herself. Show me where the writers at Blizzard give us some dialogue or insight that Jaina has thought this out. The throwaway melodramatic dialogue in the new 5-mans doesn’t count. There’s a lot of her sitting in a tower with Aegwynn watching the rain and moping in the book, but not a whole hell of a lot of self-realization, if I remember right. I’m pretty sure her every thought is how she can tell something’s Wrong With Her One True Love because of the storm, and how she has to See Him One Last Time, Just In Case. (Though I don’t have a copy to check against. I gave it away. So if you can quote something where she justifies throwing her soldiers in there to die for this last look, post away!)
Readers/players shouldn’t have to fill this in for ourselves. That’s bad writing. More, it’s lazy on the part of the game’s writers. They’ve already proven that they can show a character who is unwilling to let go out of sentiment and make it an honest, forgiveable folly. See: Tirion’s Gambit. Hell, they let your character have them, too — check out the Hand of Vengeance quests in Howling Fjord where YOU help them make the plague that gets dumped all over the soldiers at the Wrathgate.
I can’t remember who it is that said it, but evil for the sake of evil rarely works. The villain should be convinced of his or her own actions. If you sat him down and asked him why he’s torturing the hero, he should be able to explain why, not just cackle maniacally and say “because it’s fun!” Likewise, if a good character is about to do something stupid, ill-advised and yes, out of character, “But I love him!” isn’t good enough. Can it be the start? Yes, absolutely. But the whole reason? Huh uh.
Right now, we’re all filling in the “people do stupid things when they’re in love” for the writers, since they haven’t addressed it themselves. I doubt we’ll see it corrected later on as Icecrown opens up further, or as the world deals with the aftermath of Cataclysm, but right now it’s the best I can hope for: that somewhere down the road, Jaina will shake off the Sueness and go back to being the kind of strong, independent character she used to be.
And Lilivati, we’re pointing out these failings because we want more strong female characters in our fantasy fiction and games, and we’ve just seen one whose prior actions have made her a good, strong character reduced back to window dressing status. Just because it’s the status quo doesn’t mean we should just accept it.
Lilivati on December 21, 2009 at 9:05 pm.
Since apparently nobody could tell, my post was strongly laced with sarcasm.
Lilivati on December 21, 2009 at 9:11 pm.
Since we can’t edit comments, I’ll add in another post that I really thought the line “It’s one of the things that drives me insane” would have been a hint.
Secondly, I’ve been noticing and observing this for almost twenty years now. I’m not saying that to discredit anyone else’s experience or be a know-it-all- just in my experience it always, always comes back to the boys, no matter how strong the female character is. I have yet to see one whose life was NOT defined almost entirely by male relationship(s) or male character(s). That is kind of a definition of being a plot device. As a real-life woman my life has male relationships that have influenced it, but my life is not *about* those relationships.
I don’t think this is right, and I really don’t need to be lectured on it. The only thing I find so astounding, and what I was trying to convey using sarcasm in my post, is that so many people still find it so surprising.
Sorcha on December 21, 2009 at 9:35 pm.
Oh, yeh, I admit I’m filling in the blanks. But there are foreshadowings of this nonsense in other parts of the expansion. Her whining flouncing away from him when he decides to cull Stratholme in CoS, for instance. She’s just stupid when it comes to him.
My real issue here is that it would have been possible to do this dating backstory in a way that contributed to both exposing Arthas’ character and made sense for Jaina as one of those stupid things we all did when we were teenagers. Blizzard chose not to do that, and I believe that was a mistake.
falconesse on December 21, 2009 at 11:18 pm.
Apologies, Lilivati. I didn’t mean to lecture, and the point about not sticking with the status quo was me railing at the universe in general, not you directly, but I failed there.
I’m not surprised that female characters are often plot devices, but I am continually disappointed by it. In this case, with Jaina’s pre-WotLK actions, I expected better from the writers and was even more let down.
Kel on December 22, 2009 at 4:26 am.
I’m not sure if I was exactly disapointed, per se, but I definately agree that the writers could’ve done a LOT better.
And in a small token of defense for Jaina, there really was no way she could have known all those soldiers would be killed. I think she was as shocked as anyone could have been when it happened. Again, I blame the writers for not giving her better lines to express her reaction. And yes, the voice actor was kind of cheesy.
Dulcea on December 22, 2009 at 1:21 pm.
Not that I don’t think her lines were cheesy and the sacrifice stupid but…what if she’d reached him? Just for a moment? Then would all of the stupidity in her speeches have been so trite? Would the sacrifice of those soldiers and slaves have been worth it? What if our runs through these three instances lead to something that happens when we DO fight Arthas?
Its a stretch I know, but…I’m really hopeful. Really really hopeful. Mostly? Due to the excitement on the developers faces at Blizzcon, but *crosses fingers* Lets not 100% write her off…yet.
Bricu on December 22, 2009 at 3:47 pm.
She’s assaulting Ice Crown and she doesn’t expect dozens, if not hundreds, of soldiers and recently freed slaves to die? That screams stupid, incompetent or she’s lying. Again, she’s the most powerful sorceress in Azeroth, a brilliant mind and hard core enough to kill her father to protect the peace she forged with Thrall.
Jania had *potential* to do so much more than just be Arthas’ love sick fan girl.
“I just had to look into his eyes one more time and see…” Really? Talking to Uther’s GHOST isn’t enough for you? With each run of the ICC Trio, I get more and more disgusted at this vapid character.
Jania, flat out, deserved better.
I think the Devs could fix it, but I am not holding my breath.
falconesse on December 22, 2009 at 5:20 pm.
I think Kel’s saying (and Kel, correct me if I’m wrong), that she couldn’t have anticipated the kind of killing done by Tyrannus at the beginning of the Pit of Saron, and Sindragosa at the end, which I’d agree with. (Though, my question is, if she was able to save the five PCs from Sindragosa at the end of that instance, why couldn’t she save more of the soldiers and slaves, too?)
I don’t think she had illusions about people dying in general; that’s what happens when you storm the enemy’s gates.
Though — and this is probably the voice actress’ inflection, not necessarily the way it’s intended — I don’t know if I trust how sorry she really is in those lines. I can’t decide if it sounds truly remorseful or more like, “Yeah, sorry, but you were expendable so I can go see my prince.” Thinking along those lines, I almost wish it was intended in the second way. While it might not put Jaina squarely in the villain category, it would be an interesting twist: once upon a time, Arthas burned his peoples’ ships so they’d have to stay in Northrend so he could attain his goals. If Jaina were knowingly, intentionally, dragging people along as fodder so she could attain her goal of seeing him again… imagine that parallel.
That’s a lot of what bothers me about it. She does something reckless, gets a lot more people killed than she’d intended, then we’re supposed to just accept her “I’m sorry, I didn’t know,” and move on. In my rose-colored world, there will somewhere be a cut scene of Jaina atoning for it somehow, of her doing something that will help destroy him or keep the Scourge under control once he’s dead.
Dulcea, my answer to your “what if there’d been something in his eyes” is “hrmmm.”
Not very helpful, is it? XD
On the one hand, it might lessen the annoyance a bit. Right now, we walk out of there going, “Yeah, we just wasted a bunch of peoples’ lives because you’re sentimental.” I mean, we DO learn something important there, from Uther, about what will happen to the Scourge if the Lich King dies. But as for learning whether there’s a salvageable piece of Arthas inside that spiky helmet, we’ve known the answer to that since we hung out in the Cathedral with Tirion. So, to a point, her seeing some bit of Arthas in him might make it a little bit better.
But on the other hand, from a storytelling perspective, that would annoy me, too (I know, I’m hard to please.) I think mostly because it follows the cliche: no one can get through to the tormented prince except for the pretty lady who’s always been steadfast. Bleh.
What I’d rather have seen — and even this is probably pretty vanilla — is some kind of epiphany on Jaina’s part either at the end of the Pit of Saron or while she’s talking to Uther. She has a mini-revelation with Uther there, but she still wants to go see for herself, running after Arthas to let the rest of us fight with his lackeys (“You won’t deny me this Arthas. I must know! I must find out!”) She just takes off, doesn’t even say anything to the people she’s brought in with her. Even if she ran after him to go kick his ass, I’d be happier, but she admits at the end that she should’ve listened to Uther and wanted to look in his eyes one last time.
Maybe better than her going all VENGEANCE RAWR after talking to Uther, it would have made more sense for her to just say “I’m going to go hold his attention. You take care of these guys and come find me after, then we’ll get the hell out of here.” THEN, when the airships get there, it’d be nice to hear some kind of emotion and dialogue out of her that isn’t just “qq, I just figured out what everyone else has been telling me all along.” (She does call him a monster during the retreat, but I dunno, I can think of some stronger phrases that’d still be PG-13…)
Right now at the end, it’s the same Jaina from the book. She doesn’t get upset, she doesn’t get mad, she just apologizes for the dead in her mopey voice. Show me the Jaina of WC3, who gets chased by an ogre and handles it herself, thrilled by her own power. Hell, show me the Jaina from the early chapters of Arthas, where she had at least some kind of personality and independent thought, even though, unfortunately, most of it was for the benefit of Arthas’ character development.
I want to see her affected by all that’s happened, and so far, I’m not sold on it. I don’t need a tantrum or theatrical weeping. She can be even-keeled even in anger, if that’s the way the character is — I’ve seen several people play characters that can be angry/upset and still speak to you in a deadly calm voice and play it well. (I’d argue that Davien’s like that, and depending on the situation, Threnn, but I’ll let people who’ve RP’d with me confirm or refute that.)
I’m hopeful along with you, Dulcea, though I admit my faith has been shaken.
Bricu on December 22, 2009 at 5:36 pm.
(The Riders are terrified of Angry Threnn. She does Deadly Calm and Ice Cold very well).
I am relying on my memory of what occurred in WC3, but by the end of the original scenarios, Jania should be used to the horrific slaughter brought on by the Scourge. By the end game, we see exactly what the scourge can do. Through Wrath, we have all witnessed how terrifying and powerful the Lich King is. At Icecrown, at the seat of his power, we should expect worse. Hell, Bricu saw it coming. Knowing this, I still have a hard time believing that she couldn’t have anticipated the devastating attacks by Tyrannus and Sindragosa.
Dulcea on December 22, 2009 at 8:32 pm.
Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean she (Jaina) saw anything there (Halls of Reflection). The scripting is…what’s the word I’m looking for? Cheesy and trite just don’t cover it. Overdone works I suppose as well as anything else. But what if her last ditch attempt to reach Arthas isn’t visible NOW, but DOES have an impact in the Arthas fight. I just hope, if it does, Blizzard doesn’t take the Darth Vader redemption route at the end of the third (Ok, 6th chronologically) movie.
Or am I the only one who was surprised Bolvar was still alive? (I mean from when mmo-champ spoiled it, per se.)
Ringo Flinthammer on December 30, 2009 at 10:21 pm.
Where this all falls short — and has always fallen short, IMO — is in the scripting, not the plotting. Even if she no longer harbored any romantic feelings for him, wanting to do what she could, even if there was a mere chance of saving him, is perfectly reasonable. Indeed, it fits in with what I think a lot of us want from Jaina: Be the strong hero, do the right thing, even when it’s hard. (Because, lordy, I’m ready for a lore character who doesn’t behave like a complete bonehead much of the time.)
It’s the scripting that’s the problem. Her mewling over Arthas is both unbecoming and it makes her look like she doesn’t remember anything from before they rode up to Stratholme, way back when. Just rewriting her script (including the quest text in HoR) would be sufficient.
Of course, I also thought calling her “Miss” Jaina Proudmoore in War3 was weird and out of step with anyone under the age of 50, too.
(Incidentally, this very issue is going to be the subject, sort of, of this week’s Flinthammer Hall post, which has been delayed due to toddler, but which should be going up soonish.)